Brazil Flight Information!! - Page 63

robh · #**621** 16-05-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celt

The point is that over-profits are being made by the few domestic players and competition is unsatisfactory. Consequently, new operators will enter the market notwithstanding the protectionist lobby and the prospective Jet Blue is an example of this phenomenon. Low cost airlines make money in Europe and the US so why not Brazil? Your idea of a hub from the Canaries is interesting, indeed charter flights from Scandinavia already stop there on route to Natal. Low cost long-haul is still in its infancy, people were also sceptical of low cost short-haul before Southwest/Ryanair etc. proved that the model could work. Regardless, there is a lot of money to be made in short-haul flights within Brazil, and a vast population who will travel by plane when the prices come down. In my view, a lot more affluent people from Sao Paolo/Rio would invest in properties in North Eastern Brazil if there was a Brazilian equivalent of Ryanair/EasyJet to take them there cheaply.

You are already seeing a significant increase in domestic travel to/from Natal. Comparing March 2007 to March 2008 Domestic travel is up by 80k

, whilst International travel is down by 12k

which would be accounted by the rising Real, bad economic news, etc. with the corresponding decrease in package holiday punters.

These are the airport figures for Natal in March 2008:

Dom-Flights Int-Flights Total-flights Pass-Dom. Pass-Int. Pass.-Total
March 2007 4.472 554 5026 333,932 77,408 411.340
March 2008 4.683 485 5168 414.671 65.242 479.913

P.S. sorry about the formatting of the figures

Golfingworld · #**622** 16-05-2008, 07:59 PM

Another Dream World I am afraid Mr Broad. Airlines need free trade and Brazil doesn't do that...The Sheiks need total control, Brazil doesn't do that either. "Clutching at straws" to rescue a property and tourist disaster springs to mind!

debzor · #**623** 17-05-2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robh

You are already seeing a significant increase in domestic travel to/from Natal. Comparing March 2007 to March 2008 Domestic travel is up by 80k

, whilst International travel is down by 12k

which would be accounted by the rising Real, bad economic news, etc. with the corresponding decrease in package holiday punters.

These are the airport figures for Natal in March 2008:

Dom-Flights Int-Flights Total-flights Pass-Dom. Pass-Int. Pass.-Total
March 2007 4.472 554 5026 333,932 77,408 411.340
March 2008 4.683 485 5168 414.671 65.242 479.913

P.S. sorry about the formatting of the figures

Hi Rob, sorry, but I think you will find that the figures you are quoting are for the accumulative period Jan - Mar for each year, and are thus reflective of the peak summer season not one bad month.

However, fortunately, this is not repeated across the Northeast with the same figures in Recife showing passenger increases on the domestic routes of nearly 200,000 (+21%) and internationally up nearly 14,500 (+28.5%).

Maybe this is just a blip for Natal?

Dotty · #**624** 17-05-2008, 11:53 AM

Well you might be aware that figures for Recife would be higher because Recife is an International connection base aswell as National,so figures would show up to appear higher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by debzor

Hi Rob, sorry, but I think you will find that the figures you are quoting are for the accumulative period Jan - Mar for each year, and are thus reflective of the peak summer season not one bad month.

However, fortunately, this is not repeated across the Northeast with the same figures in Recife showing passenger increases on the domestic routes of nearly 200,000 (+21%) and internationally up nearly 14,500 (+28.5%).

Maybe this is just a blip for Natal?

robh · #**625** 17-05-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debzor

Hi Rob, sorry, but I think you will find that the figures you are quoting are for the accumulative period Jan - Mar for each year, and are thus reflective of the peak summer season not one bad month.

However, fortunately, this is not repeated across the Northeast with the same figures in Recife showing passenger increases on the domestic routes of nearly 200,000 (+21%) and internationally up nearly 14,500 (+28.5%).

Maybe this is just a blip for Natal?

The lesson here is don't try and look at statistics in a foreign language with a hangover! Thanks for pointing that out.

debzor · #**626** 17-05-2008, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robh

The lesson here is don't try and look at statistics in a foreign language with a hangover! Thanks for pointing that out.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt...!

FCZ · #**627** 17-05-2008, 06:51 PM

I didn't check regarding international traffic law, but I don't see big troubles here in case an international company try to operates flights to Brazil, if the airport has capacity. To Sao Paulo Emirates got permission to fly without much trouble, actually the company has already permission to increase to two daily flights if they wish.

Domestic flights are the problem. The actual legislation restrict international capital participation up to 20% in National Companies. But, there are currently three projects of Law in the Senate (I'm just mentioning those originated in the Senate, the Lower Chamber can do as well, no time to research though...) to scrap this old protectionist legislation. I looked into the one proposed by the Senator Tiao Viana (Project # 259/2006). I choose this one because the guy is from PT (Labor Party) the folks that traditionally block any liberalization proposal in Brazil. To my surprise, the project is pretty good (proof that species can evolve

; it doesn't differentiate anymore between Brazilian companies with or without national capital, i.e., any company located in Brazil (it's enough an office), is a Brazilian company, regardless of the ownership. Additionally, foreign companies can also operate internally. The bottom line, foreign companies can operate in Brazil.
Well, the project still have to be approved, but is really a good surprise to see this project coming from the government & Labor Party, as I said before, the folks that in the past object any economy liberalization. And please, don't come and say that the companies still will have to get flight permissions to fly from A to B, because if this is approved (my guess is yes), it will be a huge step forward.

For those who read Portuguese, here is a piece of the project justification:

"Seu caráter protecionista das empresas aéreas nacionais não mais se justifica, diante da demanda de transporte aéreo e da necessidade de ampliar a oferta desse vetor fundamental para o desenvolvimento do turismo e da economia nacional.(Bold added)

O Código não apenas veda a prestação de serviços aéreos por empresas estrangeiras, mas limita a participação do capital estrangeiro nas empresas brasileiras a 20%. Assim sendo, vigora um reserva de mercado absoluta, que impede o consumidor brasileiro de ter acesso a serviços de melhor qualidade e mais baratos.

Não há setor da economia nacional tão protegido contra a competição. Ao invés de fortalecer as empresas brasileiras, esse modelo, de duvidosa constitucionalidade, tornou-as acomodadas e ineficientes. Apesar de toda essa proteção, algumas das mais tradicionais companhias aéreas nacionais atravessam dificuldades financeiras e outras foram obrigadas a encerrar suas atividades.

Não menos importante é o benefício ao consumidor, que desfrutará de serviços melhores e mais baratos, em decorrência da ampliação da concorrência no setor.""

If you would like to check the project, just go to the Senate site and type the #:
Atividade Legislativa - Matérias Legislativas

michaelbush · #**628** 17-05-2008, 11:48 PM

What a wonderful piece of research FCZ!! What good news too- hopefully it will not die in the last months of this administration and have to be revived after the elections. I would imagine there is also a strong lobby because of the state of the air traffic control equipment, and the state of some of the airports in Brasil. This quite apart from the monopolistic structure of the industry. The funds to improve can come from foreign investment too.

Golfingworld · #**629** 18-05-2008, 11:25 AM

FCZ...."Traffic Rights" is what foreign airlines need and freedom of pricing. Clearly you are good at the legalities, I recently read that The Brasilian Govt "had given permission" for Gol to reduce prices to Argentina, Chile etc. This is key as it means the Govt control prices and it is everything Airlines don't need on international routes. Likewise, Charters cannot sell outbound tickets from Brazil (they do but under the table). So even if the Govt free up ownership ( I beleive US has restrictions similar) this wouldn't seem to open up a free airline economy. Traffic rights means that an airline stopping in Natal from Europe can pick up and take people onto Rio or SP which I am sure they are not allowed to do. Likewise I am sure that Emirates or anyone else can get a route into Natal at present without problem, but until they can go on elsewhere inside or outside of Brasil it is the "route to nowhere" and this is my point about this Natal grand Airport debate. It is dillusional until airlines have the rights onwards, which I don't think they have or will have and until this is free the hub idea is a fantasy. Just look at US traffic, you have to fly 4 hours south to go three hours north (into P or Rio and back again) all because traffic rights are not there and so there is no viable traffic through the NE. Until this changes, a long runway, nice terminal or visits to London by Senators is worthless. Likewise, no boom!

robh · #**630** 18-05-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingworld

FCZ...."Traffic Rights" is what foreign airlines need and freedom of pricing. Clearly you are good at the legalities, I recently read that The Brasilian Govt "had given permission" for Gol to reduce prices to Argentina, Chile etc. This is key as it means the Govt control prices and it is everything Airlines don't need on international routes. Likewise, Charters cannot sell outbound tickets from Brazil (they do but under the table). So even if the Govt free up ownership ( I beleive US has restrictions similar) this wouldn't seem to open up a free airline economy. Traffic rights means that an airline stopping in Natal from Europe can pick up and take people onto Rio or SP which I am sure they are not allowed to do. Likewise I am sure that Emirates or anyone else can get a route into Natal at present without problem, but until they can go on elsewhere inside or outside of Brasil it is the "route to nowhere" and this is my point about this Natal grand Airport debate. It is dillusional until airlines have the rights onwards, which I don't think they have or will have and until this is free the hub idea is a fantasy. Just look at US traffic, you have to fly 4 hours south to go three hours north (into P or Rio and back again) all because traffic rights are not there and so there is no viable traffic through the NE. Until this changes, a long runway, nice terminal or visits to London by Senators is worthless. Likewise, no boom!

GW,

Most countries are like that, i.e. Singapore airlines can fly to Sydney then onto Brisbane, but they can't take on passengers in Sydney, the passengers must have come into Sydney on that plane. I doubt that Brazil would have a problem with someone landing in Natal then taking the passengers that they landed in Natal with onto another city.

What you are talking about is an airline acting as a domestic airline in a foreign country and that happens nowhere.