A Couple "Musts" and "MustNots" When Investing In Brazil - Page 21

TimesAreAChanging · #**201** 04-06-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMBroad

Absolutely. If you are fluent in Portuguese or have contact with someone who you trust and who has the time and resources to do some research into the market, go for it and good luck. Otherwise, I'd suggest doing some research into companies in Europe and asking them what they have available.

Might even be worthwhile speaking to Brasilian agents and European agents and comparing what they offer you and the amount of information they are willing to share about the market and how much they actually know about the market.

To find out whether you are paying the Gringo price or the local price it's actually quite simple. Call up the agents and ask them what they are offering - try to contact several agents both in Brazil and in Europe, then do a checklist.

Who knows the country well, who has visited the country (for European agents), what product are they offering and which would they suggest for resales to the Brazillian market.

Make sure you specify that you are looking for something which can be resold to the local market otherwise most competent agencies would steer you towards the what many people assume are "Gringo priced developments" however also offer "gringo qualities". Don't forget that local priced developments come with local qualities (aka roof vs cielings, kitchens are not installed, ac not installed, thin walls, small units - 55 m2 for a two bed is not unheard of, potentially closer to lakes than to the sea, etc, etc).

Whereas if you just say you are a European looking to buy a property in Brasil they may assume that you are looking for something you can use yourself and therefore will steer you towards lifestyle units, which are generally speaking larger units, with kitchens and ac installed, cielings, parking, facilities, seafront, 24 hr security, on site restaurants, etc. etc. Of course the higher the qualities, the more the facilities, the higher the prices. Now when the qualities are the lowest and the prices the highest, that's the true definition of "Gringo" prices and if you are offered any of those, you should be able to recognise them pretty easily.

With regards to Loteamentos there are literally dozens of differences which affect the price but also the quality of life which the end user will experience.

Then once you have all the suggestions, compare prices, take the time out to fly to Brasil, go and visit each of the developments and compare qualities for yourself. Or find an agency you can trust who has done all of the above for you and can recommend something - all depends on how much time, effort and money you are investing into deciding what to invest in.

I really appreciate your post JMBoard. Especially your last sentance. So true. I had to laugh each time "gringo" turned up in your post. Its too funny. But, yes, I will do as you said above, because that's the way. Surely I will compare between brazilian agents and european ones. And since I am gringo, I like gringo quality for myself and for investment purposes to carter to the brazillian market, be it tourism, rent....like you said above. I think all my questions have been answered.
To find the right area is always a little gamble, but if you put some time and effort into it, it will at least be an informed one. I always hear NE...brazilians themselfs probably like it too, but if everyone is going there...hmmmm. Probably one does investments in those areas which one has a personal preferance towards, in the sense that one would like to live there. If one likes Rio, invest in Rio, like that...Everywhere are opportunities, one just has to find them. Am I wrong here? Probably, because that's how I want it, I just thought.
Lots to think about........

JMBroad · #**202** 05-06-2008, 10:10 AM

Whatever one buys, the criteria used to decide (our personal references) are always going to be different for the next person who buys that same property. However having said that, there are some standard references which are more common than others. For example, white façades are generally more acceptable than some of the "Tomas Taveira" developments in Portugal which although are very popular - I personally wouldn't live in because they are far too colourful.

However generally speaking, without going to extremes, I would chose a property which you like, which is not too bold or "out of the ordinary" yet in which you would be happy to live. That will give you a better chance of selling it at a later date or you may even decide to keep it for personal use.

But as I mentioned earlier, the challenge with Brazil is that everything is in extremes. For a European buyer to own a property which they would enjoy using for holidays or a second residence, a two bed apartment would have to be at least 80-90 m2 and even then it may feel a little small. For Brazilians, 55 m2 is more than enough for a two bedroom apartment.

The fixtures and fittings would have to be a certain quality, they would probably want air conditioning as they may not be used to the heat of Brazil, they may want mosquito nets on the windows, a washing machine, oven, dish washer, fridge, freezer, microwave, etc.

However a Brazilian who may consider buying that same property may not want most of the above and would certainly not be willing to pay the money required to have all of those installed. Air conditioning?

Don't forget that for many Northern Europeans, the home is a place where they spend a great deal of time, especially in the winter when the weather isn't great. For the population of countries like Brazil, the home is somewhere which meets your basic requirements - most of the day and night you are in the great outdoors.

Dotty · #**203** 05-06-2008, 10:33 AM

Have you ever been to Brasil?? .The Ist thing a brasilian thinks of is a large space and air-conditioning and all the fixtures and fitting to match perfectly which they pay architects and designers to fit their apt to fit out beautifully . As for cost a brasilian will pay to have air-conditioning installed.It s their priority.

FCZ · #**204** 05-06-2008, 10:53 AM

A simple point (from a simple mind…) considering investment purposes:
- a house on the beach: it should have resale value, but there are several costs associated with it, for instance, rust, molds, maintenance in general, to contract a company to look for the house while not there…, owns the land though;
- an apartment in town: may not have great resale value after several years (wrong assumption?) but can provide rental incomes and maintenance may be cheaper (if rented, tenant pays the condominium fees). Only a minimum fraction of the land is actually owned.

Buy as a Summer home is different, I think that boils down to “Do I like it”, and that’s it.

P.S.: regarding furnishing:
I prefer everything installed. When I bought my ap. em 2000, I spent more than R$ 20,000 (8 years ago, what would be equivalent today?) to furnish it. A month ago when I called my agent in the South regarding my ap, he said that would add a minimum to the resale value, almost nothing comparing with an empty ap. in my building.

TimesAreAChanging · #**205** 05-06-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotty

Have you ever been to Brasil?? .The Ist thing a brasilian thinks of is a large space and air-conditioning and all the fixtures and fitting to match perfectly which they pay architects and designers to fit their apt to fit out beautifully . As for cost a brasilian will pay to have air-conditioning installed.It s their priority.

Hi Dotty,

are you trying to tell me that the first thing a brasillian thinks about is a large space and AC? What brasilians are you taking about? Who are you trying to fool, dude?
I've not only been to Brazil, I've lived in various countries too, SE Asia, South Asia. Where you from, dude? Not Asia or Brazil that's for sure, because they are better at BS-ing poeple.
I'll just ignore the PM you send me, ok? Or should I post it below? pfffffff

TimesAreAChanging · #**206** 05-06-2008, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMBroad

Whatever one buys, the criteria used to decide (our personal references) are always going to be different for the next person who buys that same property. However having said that, there are some standard references which are more common than others. For example, white façades are generally more acceptable than some of the "Tomas Taveira" developments in Portugal which although are very popular - I personally wouldn't live in because they are far too colourful.

However generally speaking, without going to extremes, I would chose a property which you like, which is not too bold or "out of the ordinary" yet in which you would be happy to live. That will give you a better chance of selling it at a later date or you may even decide to keep it for personal use.

But as I mentioned earlier, the challenge with Brazil is that everything is in extremes. For a European buyer to own a property which they would enjoy using for holidays or a second residence, a two bed apartment would have to be at least 80-90 m2 and even then it may feel a little small. For Brazilians, 55 m2 is more than enough for a two bedroom apartment.

The fixtures and fittings would have to be a certain quality, they would probably want air conditioning as they may not be used to the heat of Brazil, they may want mosquito nets on the windows, a washing machine, oven, dish washer, fridge, freezer, microwave, etc.

However a Brazilian who may consider buying that same property may not want most of the above and would certainly not be willing to pay the money required to have all of those installed. Air conditioning?

Don't forget that for many Northern Europeans, the home is a place where they spend a great deal of time, especially in the winter when the weather isn't great. For the population of countries like Brazil, the home is somewhere which meets your basic requirements - most of the day and night you are in the great outdoors.

Nice Info, JMBoard.

TimesAreAChanging · #**207** 05-06-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCZ

A simple point (from a simple mind…) considering investment purposes:
- a house on the beach: it should have resale value, but there are several costs associated with it, for instance, rust, molds, maintenance in general, to contract a company to look for the house while not there…, owns the land though;
- an apartment in town: may not have great resale value after several years (wrong assumption?) but can provide rental incomes and maintenance may be cheaper (if rented, tenant pays the condominium fees). Only a minimum fraction of the land is actually owned.

Buy as a Summer home is different, I think that boils down to “Do I like it”, and that’s it.

P.S.: regarding furnishing:
I prefer everything installed. When I bought my ap. em 2000, I spent more than R$ 20,000 (8 years ago, what would be equivalent today?) to furnish it. A month ago when I called my agent in the South regarding my ap, he said that would add a minimum to the resale value, almost nothing comparing with an empty ap. in my building.

Hi FCZ,

I personaly would only buy empty appartements for resale or for rent - to brasillians. That is you don't want to live in it and its purely for investment purposes. But if you like the appartement you baught, I'd have also furnished it, because I'd like to stay there. I think the latter is true for you, so you did'nt make a big mistake. Maybe a small one in hindsight if you'd like to sell it now. But you had the appartement for 8 years, thats no loss for you.

robh · #**208** 05-06-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimesAreAChanging

Hi Dotty,

are you trying to tell me that the first thing a brasillian thinks about is a large space and AC? What brasilians are you taking about? Who are you trying to fool, dude?
I've not only been to Brazil, I've lived in various countries too, SE Asia, South Asia. Where you from, dude? Not Asia or Brazil that's for sure, because they are better at BS-ing poeple.
I'll just ignore the PM you send me, ok? Or should I post it below? pfffffff

Dotty is thinking about all the rich brazilians who can afford to hire an architect and an interior designer for furnishing the place of course....

Please post the PM.

TimesAreAChanging · #**209** 05-06-2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robh

Dotty is thinking about all the rich brazilians who can afford to hire an architect and an interior designer for furnishing the place of course....

Please post the PM.

Here you go robh, from beginning to end:

Hi Tim,

I am not an agent and have taken a hugh amount of stick on T.P because of my views on buying properties in Brasil.Briefly,I have been a long term investor in Brasil for the past 14yrs and have only had experience with buying in the brasilian market and not the gringo market.To date all purchases have been excellent.Naturally prices have increased .

There are a few excellent construction companies here that reserve very early and by the time they are launched most are all gone ,so what you need to do is tell me which City you want to invest in and what type of investment and I can find out for you.I only recently bought a cracker (that was not advertised heavily,did not have a show flat and I had only heard about it now through somebody else)so I visited the company enquiring about another of their pre launchers and to my astonishment I managed to get the original cracker!

A great investment is a bit like the UK ,location,location,location,close schools,shops,banks,parking etc,these are all easily rentable!

Bye-bye Dotty

What is your budget

Dotty · #**210** 05-06-2008, 04:58 PM

Not sure what kind of people you have met in Brasil ,but the only people I know have hugh apts and lots or air-conditioning,that goes for restaurants and schools too!Mus nt forget the suit for the empregada!

Plenty of brasilians usually have 4/5 bathrooms and AC,which would not bother me,only 2 bth-rs and a property without airconditioning would suit me fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimesAreAChanging

Hi Dotty,

are you trying to tell me that the first thing a brasillian thinks about is a large space and AC? What brasilians are you taking about? Who are you trying to fool, dude?
I've not only been to Brazil, I've lived in various countries too, SE Asia, South Asia. Where you from, dude? Not Asia or Brazil that's for sure, because they are better at BS-ing poeple.
I'll just ignore the PM you send me, ok? Or should I post it below? pfffffff