Paul;

I can tell you that the bank's in England are absolutely TERRIBLE when it comes to transferring money to Brazil. In all fairness, Brazil is not typical in respect to most countries on how they go about liquidating funds. In Brazil, it doesn't matter to which bank you are sending to(destination bank), an incoming international transfer will first be received by either Banco do Brasil or *Bradesco(*only if the final destination bank is with Bradesco) for them to liquidate the monies and complete the beurocracy that Banco Central requires. After the beurocracy is completed Banco do Brasil then sends the liquidated funds onto the final recipient bank in "reais".

So, it can be confusing to some international wire departments in England when they see a transfer going to HSBC in Fortaleza, Brazil, with all the account details of an HSBC account, but a swift code for Banco do Brasil in Fortaleza. Many times in my experience the banks in England return the transfer to the branch, or they give the customer incorrect information, such as, "this bank doesn't receive GBP, you must send in dollars, euro's, etc", or they send it on to Brazil with information other than the information you provided.

I have probably liquidated 20+ transfers from England in the last 4 years and I would say that at least 18 of them had problems and those problems were initiated in England. It doesn't matter how many times you tell them, "don't think, just send it with the information given", they just can't seem to do it. Lloyd's TSB is the absolute WORST! Matter of fact, I absolutely refuse to receive transfers from Lloyd's anymore. I've spoken with managers at numerous branches as well as people at their international wire dep't. as well as people at their home office in Scotland....and they just can't seem to follow instructions and understand exactly how Brazil goes about liquidating international transfers.

HSBC also told us once that we couldn't send GBP to our account at Caixa Economica. And this after we had already sent hundreds of thousands of pounds to our account at Caixa Economica. What they didn't understand, once again like most, is that Banco do Brasil does the liquidation independant of what the final destination bank may be. So, account details must be for the recipient bank, but the swift code must be for Banco do Brasil in the city to which you are sending. And to get people at your branch, then their wire dept. to understand this really seems to be rocket science to most of these folks.

It depends. How did you purchase the property? How were the funds sent? Were they sent to Brazil by you? How were they liquidated? What does Banco Central see in their system in relation to this purchase?

That's a good question. And since we've yet to sell any of our assets here I'm not sure of the answer at this moment. But I'll get it for you tomorrow from our accountant and get back with you.

I'm 99% sure it does...but let me confirm this tomorrow as well.

To open a business you should be able to do this with an accountant for 1,000 reais at the most...you can even do it a little cheaper depending on the accountant. Our accountant, whom is very good and knows a lot of people, which unfortunately here in Brazil the most valuable commodity is "knowing people", charges us 1,000 reais to open a business. But we normally have it opened in two weeks max...which is fast for here.

As far as hiring a lawyer to get your investors visa I just paid a lawyer that specializes in this area, and she got a portuguese investor friend of mine his, 3,500 reais per person, and I'm getting two of them for my partners.

Let me state that if one can achieve opening a bank account at Banco do Brasil he will save himself a LOT of headaches!! That way when sending to brazil one can have banco do brasil account details and the swift code for banco do brasil. So it saves a WORLD of confusion on the sending bank's part.

Although it is nearly impossible for a foreigner to get a bank accountant unless he/she has a permanent visa.

Ok thanks for the info Ralph,
Yes the property purchase money was sent directly by me from my account through the Banco do Brasil like you have explained and was sent in USD. The account details was for the priviate account in Brazil of the seller as i bought a resale. Dont really know what you mean when you asked what the Banco see in their system?
Best prices i have so far is R$6000 for acc and visa by laywers, can you recommend in Fortaleza?

Cheers
Paul

Thats the strange thing you see for the english, we dont buy property by sending the money through a agent it is done through our own solicitor, the agent is paid by the sellers solicitor when the solicitor receives the money from the buyer, then pays the agent the agreed fee 1-3%. So it suprises me when my fellow english buy through an agent as this method is not normal for us.

If you sent your monies directly from your personal account to the sellers business or personal account and he liquidated these monies via a contract of buy/sell for the property then you will have no problems at all getting your investor visa and getting your money out of brazil if/when that time comes.

When I talk to my accountant and lawyer today I will ask them if they know someone in fortaleza that they would recommend.

BOL Paul!

That isn't the problem at all, it is actually the banks that don't want to open accounts for foreigners. Something to do with reporting requirements being stricter.

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Not only are they doing it, but have done it and are doing it in DROVES! Unfortunately for MANY they have been absolutely misguided by agents that either didn't know what they were doing, or purposefully misguided them.

It's VERY difficult to have any legal recourse against someone in country A when paying for a product or service in country B unless that company legally exists in both country A and B. And at the end of the day that's what every investor must be concerned about....CYA.(cover your ass!)

No Rob, that IS the problem. Because the reporting requirements are stricter if one doesn't have a permanent visa, hence, if you ask Banco Central if a foreigner can get a bank account without a RNE number (that is the number assigned once one gets a permanent visa), Banco Central will tell you, "YES", you can. But in practice, NO BANKS are today wanting to give foreigners without a permanent visa, or, RNE number an account, because of the stricter accounting requirements for these accounts in respect to money laundering. Banco do Brasil in Rio closed over 20,000 accounts over the last 12-16 months...all foreigners, all without RNE numbers.

And, allow me to say, that I know of people that have arranged for foreigners without permanent visa's to get bank accounts. Normally at smaller banks, Unibanco, Sudameris, etc. When the regional managers of these banks find out about these account holders without RNE numbers these accounts will be closed! And I know this for a fact. I have experience in it.

Ok I think we are actually saying the same thing here. The point I was trying to make is that legally you don't need a visa, but in practice you do.

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That is correct. But try going to Banco do Brasil and telling them, "hey, it's on Banco Central's website, I can get an account simply with my CPF number and passport."

They'll say, "maybe so, but not here."

Unfortunately I've beat my head against the wall quite a few times with these folks. The unfortunate situations come into play when people that you would hope to know what they're doing absolutely have no idea. And I'm not talking about simple bank employees,etc. I'm talking about branch managers in many cases. Unfortunately one must, in many cases, "find" a bank manager or someone in the bank (banco do brasil), that is familiar with working with foreigners and international money transfers. And in the northeast it is NOT easy. Salvador is exceptional for the northeast in my experience as far as this goes as they've had and are continuing to have numerous foreign investments and have competent people working in this area.