Hi all, I am new to this forum and catching up on a lot of posts Simon Eaton comments in one of his posts about hoping to replicate the Marbella returns on investment via his investments in Brazil I would like to point out that I have not been able to establish what the return is on investment on any kind of property in Marbella I have seen prices as shown in the windows of estate agents at hugely inflated values but as far as I know there has never been a statistic produced which gives accurate figures. I am only commenting on the time period Simon quotes seven years. Not on the overall property boom were for example you bought fifteen to twenty years ago and been lucky enough to sell when property reached an all time high. As of today The agency books are full to saturation with properties for sale some of them having been there for at least 4 years. Anyone who has kept an eye on property investment in Spain but in particular Marbella would know that the only people making a "fast buck" are the developers and quite often illegally, some of whom are now paying the price for their dodgy dealings. Unfortunately the man in the street has had to pay the price with many investors having their homes bulldozed. I only hope that Brazil is not following Marbella along that path. Marbella does seem to have a profusion of "developers" offering plots for sale in Brazil though. T.

Hi.

Correct, the period of 7 years which I'm sure Simon was referring to isn't 2001-2008 it was (probably) 1996-2003. Having said that, there is still a lot of interest in property in Spain, however those looking to buy now are people who want to use the property themselves, as opposed to those looking for pure financial gain.

I previously worked for one of the biggest international (top-end) lifestyle real estate agencies worldwide doing valuations for sellers on the Costa del Sol and was personally involved in several millions of Euros of property sales each year.

Two examples I can give you:

One - bought a property for 200.000 Euros - 9 years later I valued it at 1.000.000 € all other agents told the owner to sell for 650.000 € yet the property sold within two months at 980.000 € and the new owner is delighted with the property which they are using as their holiday home.

Another gentleman bought a property for 150.000 € in 1990 and we sold it to a property developer in 2006 for 1.050.000 €

An apartment the initial buyer bought for 150.000 €, sold 3 years later for 480.000 €

So no, saying that only developers made money in Marbella is not correct. Back to the old adage of "all crows are black, all crows are birds therefore all birds are black".

If you invested in the right property at the right time, Marbella was a goldmine.

Property investing is always about timing and location. It's not exactly luck though as you said "if you were lucky enough to sell at the peak". It's less about luck and more about experience, common sense and greed. As an investor, you need to sell when you can make enough money to justify your investment. Don't be greedy and hold on until the market deflates. All property markets work in cycles. Don't buy at the top, don't try and sell at the very top. Be wise.

__________________
Yes, I work for a Real Estate company doing market research and analysis but I'm not involved in sales.

Have a nice day

Thanks JM Its nice to hear from somebody who is rational about the whole thing in my own case I have come out quite well in Marbella and it is not an investment property but an apt. I reside in 6 months of the year. I was really trying to be comparitive to Brazil and hoping that as you say the percentage of genuine developers outrank the "crows" Regds T

Ther are no crows.. or at least I haven't seen any in the Northeast of Brazil...many tropical birds but no crows.

I am an investor and developer in the Northeast of Brazil with 9 years experience here. I would like to say that JM is correct about his analysis and timing along with experience is very much the issue.

Brazil has become a goldmine already for many people and property values are rising considerably. You must always do your due diligence and preferably visit the location and get to know the developer and location of which you intend to invest. Anything less will leave you open to the proverbial crows.

From what I have seen over the last few years visiting Ceara and Rio Grande do Norte, monitoring developments/areas and speaking to agents is that many of the proverbial crows are the European based agents. It is more to do with the fact that many real est companies just do not even know the product that they are trying sell never mind exactly where the development is, about the local area, local prices, what and how many liecenses are needed especially for large developments, investment exit routes, tax laws ....... the list goes on!

Lagarto, I assume you also live in Ceara aswell as a investor, are you English? I will be a permanant resident in Ceara myself next month and will be looking for another plot of land to develop myself.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul
Yes I am English but proud to say that I live in Ceará which has been the base for my investments and also my new family, with my third Brazilian child arriving in no less than 5 weeks from now.
It would be great to meet with you when you come here next month and I can help you find the land you need and provide developement ideas.
I have English speaking lawyers available, plus in house architects, constructors etc. along with a full aftersales service. I am also fully registered with the necessary governing bodies and speak fluent Portuguese...very important.
I am not an estate agent although I do sell my own projects, land etc etc
I can be contacted on 0055 85 9159 5757
Propertybrazil.net

Hi Paul at last I am getting some commonsense answers to my general questioning for what I think are the basic "what to do and not what to do" re investment in Brazil" by people who are actually there. The question of "Crows" nice term that for scam merchants. it is really very difficult for people who are contemplating investing in Brazil but for some reason feel more comfortable having a European based agent for various reasons, to differentiate the good from the bad. I have no doubt that there are genuine ones about but finding them are quite difficult, unless you are moving into the really top end of the market and can recognize the established, named companies. I have noticed that since I started my threads on this forum that a lot of the contributors who were singing the praises of certain developments have not been able to answer the most basic of questions concerning their investment. regards T.

Hi Toupeira,
I hear what you are saying about moving into the top end of the market with recognised big named real estate companies, but in my experience with Brazil, some of them have actually been the worst! Best that I dont mention names live on the net, as it has caused problems before to the forum owner, but certain ones with various offices around europe who sell in many different countries (trick of all trades, master in none!) I wouldnt touch with a barge pole.

I know of a couple of cases where big companies have been involved in scams (although probably unknownly) because they didnt really know what they were doing. Many of these companies sales reps are in their job because they are good at the fast talk and putting hype and the rush sell in front of you. Try asking them what should be logical obvious questions about what they are trying sell and you will soon see that your 'investment advisor' on the phone does not come up to much, then would maybe admit that Brazil is not in there field of expertise, lol, or would say that they will find out and call you back, but then never hear from them again as you will be noted as a tricky customer! I remember a while back for example a sales rep for a very large international company (who even have a tv show on sky), tried to sell me a offplan saying it was in Natal, I replied saying in the city it cant be what town in Rio Grande do Norte is it in or very near?, she didnt know and just kept pushing in Natal or very near, and near big new airport coming soon. I later found out this development was 30 mins SOUTH of Joao PESSOA! lol so about 3 hrs away. Another fast talker from a large company trying to sell something in Paraiba tried to convince me that the airport in Joao Pessoa had many internation flights from Europe!

My point is find the correct questions to ask, make sure you are dealing with knowlegable people and with local knowledge of the areas in question. In my opinion and experience I think you ll have a much better chance with a company who is at least dedicated to the area and preferably one that is actually local to that area, as Golfingworld once said on here that stuck in my mind, if you were to buy a house in Brighton would you go to Manchester to find an estate agent!

Regards
Paul

Thanks Paul very sound advice I have to admit that i have gone off the boil slightly as far as Brazil is concerned but at the moment I am gathering a database, putting together a portfolio so that I can ask the right questions. At this stage one of the areas which is a bit grey seems to be definitions of the "Environmentel License" and how important this is. I also have been keeping a close eye on the economic climate in that country and have just posted a new thread on that subject for comment. Thanks again T

The Environmental license is imperative for any real estate project in Brazil as you can't get all the other required licenses without it. However while having the license is a good indication that things are on the right track, the mere fact that a project has it does not mean you can buy/sell the development. There are still several to be applied for and issued after that. Brazilian law is very strict on when a real estate project/development can be bought/sold and the Environmental license is too early a stage.

__________________
Yes, I work for a Real Estate company doing market research and analysis but I'm not involved in sales.

Have a nice day