After going through all the main threads in this wonderful web site I came to this conclusion regarding investing in property.
Many countries have advantages and disadvantages some worth investing in and some
With higher risk …and my conclusion is DUBAI is a good place for investment why
Advantages:
1- no tax
2- less fraud
3- high construction quality (not best in the world but better than many other locations)
4- good tenants for income property(not many cases of returned checks or non payment) and many tenants stay long term
5- High rent (9-12%)
6- cheap property compared to many around the world specially if you compare ROI
7- local government spending a lot on infrastructure (improving highways , bridges, tunnels , shopping centers, hospitals, etc)
8- many large business starting to be based here
9- most of the developers finish the projects(not many bankrupts)
10- GDP pretty good
11- High employment rates all tenants can afford to pay rents(not like many east European countries)locals cant rent your property.
12- Prices are still cheap $200 per sq foot on average high end can reach $500 . But not in very high end projects like the palm. compared to east Asia prices can go as high as $2000 psf so there is still enough cushion for prices to move up
13- Low crime rate one of the lowest in the world I think(not sure about the rank)
14- Many ppl from surrounding troubled countries are coming to live and stay in Dubai making demand on rental properties high
15- I can list a lot more points but I m tired of typing

Disadvantages:
1-geoploitcal tensions in the region (important factor but look at the advantages above)
2-research reports are saying supply will catch with the demand soon like in 2010
Based on assumptions and one of the assumptions that I don’t agree with is supply demand curves are based on 2.5 ppl per flat and I think it should be +4 ppl in a flat
Many ppl can t afford to stay without sharing especially new comers who start with low salary …..Anyway which means demand will be equal to the supply much sooner than 2010 lets say by end of 2008 which means you have to adjust your rental expectations by as much as 20% more flats to rent less ppl to rent them only cheaper ones will go
Which means?
3- Prices might correct a little bit anytime soon lets say by 20%max
4- severe weather conditions high salt content in groundwater sandy soil which makes most buildings require piles under foundations and they have a life span
And I as a civil engineer I give most buildings a life span of 15 years as a safe estimate when I calculate my ROI
Said all this if you repeat this exercise with other locations around the world you will not get a better deal than DUBAI the advantages are many.
And I m talking from experience as I have been to many other locations around the world in search of a good property investment (deal
Would like to share your comments on investment in Dubai

Im no expert in Dubai but like you I did spend a lot of time considering many different nations.

I have experienced oversupply in the UK B2L market - I purchased a brand new penthouse flat in a central location in the S East and found rental yields became very low as a result of many properties completing at the same time, hence tenants held the whip hand. Despite all the press articles telling us of the lack of property, the opposite was true, and this in a very prosperous town.

As a result I feared the same could happen in Dubai only on a far bigger scale.
Not saying it will happen, but I think the risk is too great for my tastes.
Hundreds of thousands of properties all scrabbling for attention is how I see it.

The usual response from buyers goes.. "but my property is special", however Im bound to conclude not every property can be so, in fact probably less than 20% would be truly differentiated.

A lot of people also have'nt properly considered the letting management scene. Which agent will let it? HOW WILL AGENTS FACED WITH A WALL OF PROPERTY DECIDE WHICH PROPERTY TO TAKE - ON? Will they prefer local owners to distant 'time wasting' foreigners?


In summary I cant dismiss Dubai, it may well turn out to be a winner, I just dont feel comfortable investing into a market which will feature a vast glut of new property comming to market over the space of a few years.

I prefer Berlin where prices are low, risk is minute, and property fell in price just as our did in the UK in the early nineties. Standard Life and many other UK fund managers are buying thousands of properties here. Fraud is virtually impossible.

Secondly I favour Morocco - the 6 mega Government resorts. On mine (Saidia) no building in the area is allowed for 15 years once the first 3000 units are built - now thats what I call a restricted supply, and note many UK footballers have publicly announced thier purchases on this site which is in esccence an up - market Centreparcs on a beach!
Ryanair and Thomsons have announced plans to aquire hotels in Morocco. Even the local busses in my area advertise Morocco holidays!
3 hour flight, middle class market focus (this isnt Bulgaria), year round season, Very high end Government and other resorts (including many by Emaar and other Dubai developers).

can you please give me an idea about . prices in berlin euro/f^2
cheers

EyeC. Please expand more on your thinking with reference to:
"And I as a civil engineer I give most buildings a life span of 15 years as a safe estimate when I calculate my ROI"
Why 15 years?

On Berlin property, it depends where you look. You should be able to get property for around £1k per m2 in areas that aren't particularly desirable (but that may do well if regeneration takes place.) More upmarket areas are more expensive. Think you are talking about nearer the £2k per m2 mark there.

On Dubai, its not an area I've considered in depth. When short listing areas to look for property I discounted Dubai on the basis that it had already seen terrific increases in house prices. My feeling was that I had missed the most significant price rises. I also disliked the way attention in Dubai was going from oil to property. Were dwindling oil stocks the only reason for switching the focus to oil? Rising sea levels were also a concern. But as mentioned earlier, I didn't research Dubai thoroughly, simply did an hour or two on each of a couple of dozen countries that had caught my eye (of which Dubai was one) then whittled it down to 10 or so. Places I liked the look of and invested in include Estonia, Latvia and Morocco. Other areas I'm interested in include Montenegro, Poland and Sri Lanka, though I'm probably too risk averse to take the plunge with the latter, even if things look like they will become more stable their.

Soup Dragon, where did you invest in Estonia? I have just started looking at potentially buying off-plan in Tallinn. Although prices still look affordable, I am concerned (and this is a general concern with Eastern Europe in general and the Baltic States in particular) that the amount of construction taking place may dampen property prices in the future (or even before the property purchases is completed) due to oversupply. Also on oversupply, I also wonder how rentable new apartments would be coupled by the fact that locals' income may not be sufficient to meet mortgage repayments.

I bought into a fund that invests in Estonia and Latvia. The fund is a vehicle through which a large number of investors come together (£20m/£30m pot) and buy land cheaply, get permissions, develop land, build apartments then sell them on off plan. Fund is focussing on the major cities. It plans to do 4 or 5 developments, two have been acquired on edge of Tallinn.

I share your concerns about oversupply of new property due to the number of such developments taking place. The big bonus for us is that the locals love the new accomodation and are leaving their old communist block housing or ram shackle farms for new build. They are also keen on renovated properties. One of the people that I met up with in Tallinn acquires houses in the Balti Jam area of Tallinn (other side of the Old Town from financial district.) He then splits them into flats and does a fairly basic do up job. The locals are snapping these properties up for rental because they are so much nicer than their existing places - and are cheaper to rent than new builds.

If you are still concerned about oversupply of new build then perhaps a small pad in one of the further flung streets in the Old Town would make a good target. Stock is clearly limited and likely to become increasingly desirable as Estonia prospers. There is also a street or two between the Old Town and financial hub where property looks like it could be listed and prices are considerably lower than in the Old Town or the financial hub. (Don't remember names of theses streets, but lie next to what I think is the Eastern most gate to the Old Town.

Average income is low (circa £4k/£5k pa) but there are plenty of people earning more than that and these are the ones that you will be targetting if you go for city centre / better suburban areas.

Take care to South of city. Commuting from here is not as good and property less desirable because of it. (Traffic jams round rush hour, especially near the airport, are a nightmare.)

I know South Florida (Boca Raton and below) is hugely underated as an investment opportunity. My experience has been that my properties (a condo and a house) have been continually rented (by Americans, not tourists) since I bought 6 years ago.

Don't go for the tourist markets north of Boca - there has been a glut of building, and locals just don't buy in the Orlando speculative build zones.

And the local rental market is extremely strong (immigration boom in and around Miami, plus baby boomers moving from the north). A decent 3 bed, two bath house in a community with clubhouse, pool, gym requires a lot lower investment than 2 years ago $230k as opposed to $310K). I am buying again while prices remain as low as they are (rental have gone up by 10% annually by the way). And I'm running a successful business finding the sorts of properties that are really difficult to find if you are based in the UK or Northern Europe. Let's hope the dollar remains as weak as it is at the moment!

sarah@shortcutsflorida.com

I think Sarah, makes good points in some of her listings previously with key questions like tax, income potential etc.

Why are people so keen on morocco, every moroccan is trying to leave the place and get to europe so why are people so keen on this place. Dubai, has had its day, there are alot of sweetners in the market, it is build, build, build, how many people want to go on holiday to dubai and somewhere down the line the bombs go off. It is very controlled market with not many developers. Clever people in this part of the world for what they have achieved but the bubble there will burst.

Sarah you have done well in a market Florida where the is saturation of rental properties so well done to you. (Did you mention how much tax have to pay on income, is it 30 or 40% or do you underwrite it with the mortgage interest) Property funds that one of the other guys invested in, Estonia, Tallin etc, how can you trust someone else to invest your money better than you? They are making money on your money with zero risk to them. I would prefer to be in theire shoes than yours, they have 100% upside with zero risk. Classic get rich on someone elses money scene. I think you will be ok as the markets are going upwards but not an investment strategy I would go into . ie. manage your own money, dont let others manage it for you.

Having and doing business is some north african countries, other than the threat of bombs, Egypt I find to be an interesting situation. They have signed a peace agreement with Israel. Red Sea big tourism. Cultured and Civilised people, alot of history, educated. Or some South American countries.

Again your investment depend on what you want out of them. i.e. Pure Money or other attributes too.

Goldberg Global
Funds aren't for everyone and its easy to see why some people are sceptical - I'm sure many reading your comments will share at least some of your views. However, you only need look a little closer to see the opportunities they bring for you and how you can minimise some of the risks you mentioned.

Until recently such funds were the preserve of the rich. Most of the people running the funds listed on the Channel Islands Stock Exchange have a track record of running such funds and delivering healthy returns to their investors. That track record reduces the probability of them not being trust worthy and also evidences how good the returns can be.

You asked "How can you trust someone else to invest your money better than you?"
There are many reasons that the fund I invested in should provide a better return than I would get by simply investing the money myself. They include:
1) Economies of scale. (Multi million pound fund.)
2) Minimal pay during funds life to the team that run it. They have their reward by taking 25% of profits.
3) Key members of the team sit on boards for companies that supply raw materials. They therefore acquire those raw materials at a very good price.
4) Team have in depth knowledge of local market and many of them are based there. (I don't have that same level of local knowledge throughout the Baltic countries. Nor am I able to manage my acquisition as effectively and cost efficiently from the UK.)
5) Value is added to building projects at every stage. (Changing land use adds value. Getting planning permissions adds value, etc.) Adding value equals more profit. I'm not able to add significant value to any acquisitions I make abroad. I'd be reliant on house price inflation and healthy rentals to make a buck.

The fund I'm with aims to deliver over 30% return (after tax etc) per annum and that assumes no house price inflation or leverage. With house price inflation and leverage the return should be greater, indeed the Fund Manager has a track record of delivering above expectations.

Finally, you mentioned there is zero risk to those running the fund. I can see where you are coming from, but don't agree. Yes they won't be out of pocket now, but their reputation will be damaged and that adversely impacts their ability to make money in the future. (Would you invest in a fund run by a manager that has a track record of losing money?)

hi the soap dragon
Why 15 years? Aggressive soils have high salt content and it attacks rebar in concrete piles under the foundations of high rise buildings. To design well for this you need to increase rebar diameter, cover of concrete and rebar coatings and soon. All this means extra costs if the building owner is doing this for himself he will bare the costs otherwise I don’t think they will design for very long term. So i m happy with 15 years anything above that is an added bonus. And I don’t want to scare you talking about workmanship and speed of construction can do to quality,….etc.
Conclusion: anywhere in the world less risk in buying in low rise buildings and houses if you don’t know the main contractor, consultant, developer, etc.
so unless you have more information regarding who is doing what and past records of what they have done i will stick with 15
and i might be wrong